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Thread: Mirrorless Full Frame vs. DSLRs

  1. #1

    Mirrorless Full Frame vs. DSLRs

    Greeting:

    I have a Sony a6000 and it is very tempting to upgrade or supplement it with a Sony full frame mirror less. However, when looking at the Sony mirror less and the Canon and Nikon DSLRs the isn't a huge difference in size to my eyes. I have not looked closely, so forgive me if I am off here.

    With this in mind, are there significant advances to a full frame mirror less camera over a Canon or Nikon DLSR?

    Thank you in advance for any input.

    Smorton

  2. #2
    Here you can see the notable difference in size. Full frame Sony A7r II vs the D800 for example: I got this info from the excellent camera size and comparing resource here: http://camerasize.com/compare/#624,290

    Sony A7R II is 13% (19.1 mm) narrower and 22% (27.3 mm) shorter than Nikon D800.
    Sony A7R II is 26% (21.2 mm) thinner than Nikon D800.
    Sony A7R II [625 g] weights 38% (375 grams) less than Nikon D800 [1000 g] (*inc. batteries and memory card).


    Sony A7R II dimensions: 126.9x95.7x60.3 mm (camera body only, excluding protrusion)
    Nikon D800 dimensions: 146x123x81.5 mm (camera body only, excluding protrusion)
    - See more at: http://camerasize.com/compare/#624,290



    Jay
    Jay - Comments, Questions, and Critiques always welcomed and encouraged!

    Current Everyday Gear: Sony A7r, Sony Nex-6, sel1855, sel55210, sel16f28, Rainbow Imagining MC/MD Lens Adapter, Minolta MD 50mm f/1.4 PG Rokkor Lens
    Current Pro Gear: 2x Canon 5d Mark II, EF 17-40mm f/4 L lens, EF 24-105mm f/4 L Lens, EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS lens, EF 100-400mm L IS lens, EF 135mm f/2 L Lens, EF 15mm f/2.8 fish-eye lens, 2x 580 EX II Flash Units, 3x AlienBee B800 Studio Flash Units, Studio light stands, backdrops, fold-able softboxes, umbrellas, etc..

  3. #3
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    well that does put in in perspective....8-)
    Camera : Sony A6000
    Sony Lens : FE 90mm f/2.8 G OSS Macro , 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 OSS, 10-18mm f/4 OSS ultra wide,FE 16-35mm f/4 OSS ZA Lens
    Sigma Lens : 30mm f/2.8 DN

    500 px : https://500px.com/stevemeier

  4. #4
    Thank you Jay for the helpful response.

    I noticed that you appear to have two Canon 5d Mark II in your pro gear. It would be interesting to know if you plan to ever part with the Canon equipment and go entirely mirror less.

    Steve, I looked at your photos taken with a Sony A6000 (at 500 px : https://500px.com/stevemeier) and they are wonderful. I am starting to wonder if there is such a huge difference between the crop sensor camera and the full frame to someone who is not a "pixel peeper." Steve, you make a good case that a Sony A6000 is good enough for many people. Your photos blow me away. I would not be able to tell if these had been taken with the most expensive camera in the world, whatever that is or the Sony A6000.

    Thanks for the feedback. After I wrote this post I googled this subject and ...well, let's put it this way, this seems to be a subject on which reasonable people could disagree.

    Great forum and website, Jay!!

    Smorton

  5. #5
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    thanks for the compliments....I do luv my a6000 and as still learning and travel a lots its bloody great it makes it easy to take all my gear because I dont have a huge amount so its always exciting abd because the size of the a6000.
    Because of the extra reach from the crop etc....its great for getting that extra reach.....only down side is my 10mm ultra wide is 15mm on a6000 but I have not lost out to much.

    As i look to spend more on glass..I will go full frame lens, just in case one day I update.....
    Camera : Sony A6000
    Sony Lens : FE 90mm f/2.8 G OSS Macro , 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 OSS, 10-18mm f/4 OSS ultra wide,FE 16-35mm f/4 OSS ZA Lens
    Sigma Lens : 30mm f/2.8 DN

    500 px : https://500px.com/stevemeier

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Smorton View Post
    Thank you Jay for the helpful response.

    I noticed that you appear to have two Canon 5d Mark II in your pro gear. It would be interesting to know if you plan to ever part with the Canon equipment and go entirely mirror less.

    Steve, I looked at your photos taken with a Sony A6000 (at 500 px : https://500px.com/stevemeier) and they are wonderful. I am starting to wonder if there is such a huge difference between the crop sensor camera and the full frame to someone who is not a "pixel peeper." Steve, you make a good case that a Sony A6000 is good enough for many people. Your photos blow me away. I would not be able to tell if these had been taken with the most expensive camera in the world, whatever that is or the Sony A6000.

    Thanks for the feedback. After I wrote this post I googled this subject and ...well, let's put it this way, this seems to be a subject on which reasonable people could disagree.

    Great forum and website, Jay!!

    Smorton
    Thanks for the detailed reply and I don't plan on getting rid of any of my Pro gear. I did for a while, but then I decided I'm just going to keep it, just encase I want to turn on the photography business again. I don't don't do any pro photography for profit anymore, but if I needed to, I could in a heart beat. If I lost my "real" job for example, I could absolutely start shooting portraits, weddings, and other events immediately to make some money fast. I don't want to do that, but if I had to, pro tools are required in my opinion. I could change it all out for Sony Pro gear, but it's just not worth it at this point, plus my wife prefers the Canon gear in the studio still for our kids portraits and what not. I have not purchased any camera gear in a long time, which is why I still have the original Sony A7r and NEx-6. Hopefully this will change soon though

    Full frame vs crop factor is a hard decision and in the real world it can be hard to tell the difference unless you are exploiting the sensor size via depth of field in my opinion. Check out this article I wrote on the matter. Full Frame vs APS-C w/ Ziess f/4 zooms

    Great photo spread Steve!! I just checked them out again as it's been a while

    Jay
    Jay - Comments, Questions, and Critiques always welcomed and encouraged!

    Current Everyday Gear: Sony A7r, Sony Nex-6, sel1855, sel55210, sel16f28, Rainbow Imagining MC/MD Lens Adapter, Minolta MD 50mm f/1.4 PG Rokkor Lens
    Current Pro Gear: 2x Canon 5d Mark II, EF 17-40mm f/4 L lens, EF 24-105mm f/4 L Lens, EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS lens, EF 100-400mm L IS lens, EF 135mm f/2 L Lens, EF 15mm f/2.8 fish-eye lens, 2x 580 EX II Flash Units, 3x AlienBee B800 Studio Flash Units, Studio light stands, backdrops, fold-able softboxes, umbrellas, etc..

  7. #7
    Thanks for the input!!

    Smorton

  8. #8
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    Thanks Jay,

    In June (our winter) going for a driving holiday for just over a week.....have the places mapped out for photos and two include a heli....so looking forward to that....hoping for some awesome snow covered mountain shots and sunsets/sunrises all going to plan.
    Camera : Sony A6000
    Sony Lens : FE 90mm f/2.8 G OSS Macro , 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 OSS, 10-18mm f/4 OSS ultra wide,FE 16-35mm f/4 OSS ZA Lens
    Sigma Lens : 30mm f/2.8 DN

    500 px : https://500px.com/stevemeier

  9. #9
    I've been thinking recently about selling my Canon gear and getting an A7 or A7 2 mainly because of size . I'm away on a cruise soon so weight (7kg) will be a big factor .
    I think i'm happy enough with my new A6000 to leave the Canon at home but that brings the question..........why keep it ?
    I'm never likely to do much studio stuff , decisions decisions...............

  10. #10
    Elite Member leuius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrenHealy View Post
    I've been thinking recently about selling my Canon gear and getting an A7 or A7 2 mainly because of size . I'm away on a cruise soon so weight (7kg) will be a big factor .
    I think i'm happy enough with my new A6000 to leave the Canon at home but that brings the question..........why keep it ?
    Hmmm... another question, based on your statements that you like the A6000 and that size is important, would be why an A7? I have nothing against A7 but size-wise, APS-C lenses are also smaller than full frame equivalent so if you are looking for the most compact setup, maybe the A6000 (or follow-ons) can be a good fit for you. A7 and A6000 are both 24Mpixels.

    You may even keep and adapt your existing Canon lenses. No size advantage there but that would favor the A7 mark 2 for auto-focusing.

    Just thinking out loud...

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by leuius View Post
    Hmmm... another question, based on your statements that you like the A6000 and that size is important, would be why an A7? I have nothing against A7 but size-wise, APS-C lenses are also smaller than full frame equivalent so if you are looking for the most compact setup, maybe the A6000 (or follow-ons) can be a good fit for you. A7 and A6000 are both 24Mpixels.

    You may even keep and adapt your existing Canon lenses. No size advantage there but that would favor the A7 mark 2 for auto-focusing.

    Just thinking out loud...
    So is an A7 a lot bigger than an A6000 ? The Canon and lenses are pretty heavy which is basically the problem .
    I've never actually seen an A7 i just assumed it was more A6000 kind of sized .
    Maybe i should just keep what i have as the only time weight is an issue is on some flights

  12. #12
    Yeah the A7 is larger and heavier than the A6000 However, it's still way smaller than a full frame DSLR....



    Jay
    Jay - Comments, Questions, and Critiques always welcomed and encouraged!

    Current Everyday Gear: Sony A7r, Sony Nex-6, sel1855, sel55210, sel16f28, Rainbow Imagining MC/MD Lens Adapter, Minolta MD 50mm f/1.4 PG Rokkor Lens
    Current Pro Gear: 2x Canon 5d Mark II, EF 17-40mm f/4 L lens, EF 24-105mm f/4 L Lens, EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS lens, EF 100-400mm L IS lens, EF 135mm f/2 L Lens, EF 15mm f/2.8 fish-eye lens, 2x 580 EX II Flash Units, 3x AlienBee B800 Studio Flash Units, Studio light stands, backdrops, fold-able softboxes, umbrellas, etc..

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
    Yeah the A7 is larger and heavier than the A6000 However, it's still way smaller than a full frame DSLR....



    Jay
    Just had a quote back from MPB which has made my mind up to keep my gear and use my more than capable A6000 on holidays . Best of both worlds really

  14. #14
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    Thats Great too Hear Darren...Luv my a6000

    I was and am still planning to compliment by getting a full frame sony.....and lens purchases I have been buying Full Frame emount lens....so I can use on both on a6000 and whatever full frame camera I get.

    I also have seen and know of professional landscape guys using the emount ultra wide 10-18 which is an a6000 lens on a7r2 with no issues.....but only on 12mm and 17 and this gets rid of vignette.....(trey ratcliffe)....

    I luv Sony and what they have done in this space.....

    I want to get full frame for the Megapixel and for astro as the aps-c sensors are not great for astro
    Camera : Sony A6000
    Sony Lens : FE 90mm f/2.8 G OSS Macro , 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 OSS, 10-18mm f/4 OSS ultra wide,FE 16-35mm f/4 OSS ZA Lens
    Sigma Lens : 30mm f/2.8 DN

    500 px : https://500px.com/stevemeier

  15. #15
    Elite Member leuius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve View Post
    I want to get full frame for the Megapixel and for astro as the aps-c sensors are not great for astro
    That is a surprising astro perspective... are you referring to high-ISO differences or something else?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by leuius View Post
    That is a surprising astro perspective... are you referring to high-ISO differences or something else?
    No PIXEL size on sensor.

    I have a great video that explains this but its not online video...it was one from Practical photography Magazine in UK explaining pros and cons and designs on sensor sizes etc....really informative video...I was not aware of it myself makes perfect sense though
    Camera : Sony A6000
    Sony Lens : FE 90mm f/2.8 G OSS Macro , 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 OSS, 10-18mm f/4 OSS ultra wide,FE 16-35mm f/4 OSS ZA Lens
    Sigma Lens : 30mm f/2.8 DN

    500 px : https://500px.com/stevemeier

  17. #17
    The larger the pixel, the more dynamic range and light sensitivity it is capable of. The A7s II is the best option currently that I can think of for Astro work Of course the Canon and Nikon now offer solutions that are also excellent for astro... I wish I could do this type of photography more, and will once the kids are a bit older...

    Jay
    Jay - Comments, Questions, and Critiques always welcomed and encouraged!

    Current Everyday Gear: Sony A7r, Sony Nex-6, sel1855, sel55210, sel16f28, Rainbow Imagining MC/MD Lens Adapter, Minolta MD 50mm f/1.4 PG Rokkor Lens
    Current Pro Gear: 2x Canon 5d Mark II, EF 17-40mm f/4 L lens, EF 24-105mm f/4 L Lens, EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS lens, EF 100-400mm L IS lens, EF 135mm f/2 L Lens, EF 15mm f/2.8 fish-eye lens, 2x 580 EX II Flash Units, 3x AlienBee B800 Studio Flash Units, Studio light stands, backdrops, fold-able softboxes, umbrellas, etc..

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    I dont have to go far to do astro here ...about 20 minutes from home...lol and lots of places close by...I have done odd one with a6000 but always noisey.....
    Camera : Sony A6000
    Sony Lens : FE 90mm f/2.8 G OSS Macro , 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 OSS, 10-18mm f/4 OSS ultra wide,FE 16-35mm f/4 OSS ZA Lens
    Sigma Lens : 30mm f/2.8 DN

    500 px : https://500px.com/stevemeier

  19. #19
    Elite Member leuius's Avatar
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    Astro-photography vs pixel

    I agree that the pixel size is significant for light gathering but there is also a matter of the technology involved. Not all pixels are created equal. There are many types of sensor, with varying characteristics:

    1. Foveon (vs Bayer or X-trans, as follows)
    2. BSI (recent Sony - more sensitive because the cell is actually closer to the sensor surface)
    3. "Normal" (front-side illuminated, the baseline where the cell sits at the bottom of a "pit", so less sensitive)
    4. CCD (the other three above being CMOS)

    Also, the pixel size will be a function of the number of pixels and the sensor area, not just the sensor size. A low-res APS-C may beat a high-res FF for pixel size. As you indicated, the A7S2 wins this match, the A7R2 may not but the BSI nature of its sensor can compensate somewhat. It's a matter of compromise.

    I think basing astro-photography solely on pixel size is not conclusive. I refer you to a nice (although dated) discussion/tutorial on the subject of cameras. Not everything is so black-and-white when you consider this line of photography. Where you live and the resulting sky quality is probably a much bigger factor than camera when it comes to looking at the planets/stars. Then there is also sensor filtering, temperature, etc.

    I am not an astro-photography expert but I know folks who are and getting into this kind of discussion with them has been quite an eye-opener for me. The best gear in that world does not come from Canon, Nikon or Sony... and the entry price to play the game in a serious fashion is quite high. Not in my league for sure

    My $0.02.

    Regards

  20. #20
    Elite Member leuius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve View Post
    I dont have to go far to do astro here ...about 20 minutes from home...lol and lots of places close by...I have done odd one with a6000 but always noisey.....
    Lucky you! Light pollution on the eastern side of North America makes astronomy observation quite dismal. Weather is also working against us most of the time. But it is possible...

    You can work noise out somewhat using special programs, such as Registax or other. You need to take lots of frames. The results can be surprising.

    Cheers

  21. #21
    I was quite surprised at the results I got first try with Astro using the A7r II and my slow Canon EF 24-105mm f/4 IS lens To your point Stef, the gear is only part of the equation....


    Celestial - Basha-Kill Wildlife Preserve by Jason, on Flickr

    Jay
    Jay - Comments, Questions, and Critiques always welcomed and encouraged!

    Current Everyday Gear: Sony A7r, Sony Nex-6, sel1855, sel55210, sel16f28, Rainbow Imagining MC/MD Lens Adapter, Minolta MD 50mm f/1.4 PG Rokkor Lens
    Current Pro Gear: 2x Canon 5d Mark II, EF 17-40mm f/4 L lens, EF 24-105mm f/4 L Lens, EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS lens, EF 100-400mm L IS lens, EF 135mm f/2 L Lens, EF 15mm f/2.8 fish-eye lens, 2x 580 EX II Flash Units, 3x AlienBee B800 Studio Flash Units, Studio light stands, backdrops, fold-able softboxes, umbrellas, etc..

  22. #22
    Elite Member leuius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
    I was quite surprised at the results I got first try with Astro using the A7r II and my slow Canon EF 24-105mm f/4 IS lens To your point Stef, the gear is only part of the equation....
    Wow, great shot. Can't get this around here without driving at least an hour directly opposite the city.

    Very serene image of the Milky Way; the foreground is also beautiful. With special filters, you can mute and "see through" the orange cast of distant agglomerations and improve contrast. You take a beating on exposure though.

    Stef

  23. #23
    Thanks Stef This killer spot is only about 15 minutes away from my house!!

    Here is another angle with some more dynamic range and color I thought. When I saw these results I remember thinking that the pixel density is not near as big of a deal as I thought. It does make a difference, but the optics w/ proper filters, would prolly do more than the pixel density advantage. At the end of the day this is good enough for my purposes, and I was using an f/4 lens plus a super high density sensor! Both are supposedly bad for astro... Pixel peeping i'm sure experts could pick this apart and explain how and why different gear would be way better, but I really don't need better in my world


    Car Stars - Sony A7r II by Jason, on Flickr

    Best,
    Jay
    Jay - Comments, Questions, and Critiques always welcomed and encouraged!

    Current Everyday Gear: Sony A7r, Sony Nex-6, sel1855, sel55210, sel16f28, Rainbow Imagining MC/MD Lens Adapter, Minolta MD 50mm f/1.4 PG Rokkor Lens
    Current Pro Gear: 2x Canon 5d Mark II, EF 17-40mm f/4 L lens, EF 24-105mm f/4 L Lens, EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS lens, EF 100-400mm L IS lens, EF 135mm f/2 L Lens, EF 15mm f/2.8 fish-eye lens, 2x 580 EX II Flash Units, 3x AlienBee B800 Studio Flash Units, Studio light stands, backdrops, fold-able softboxes, umbrellas, etc..

  24. #24
    Elite Member leuius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
    This killer spot is only about 15 minutes away from my house!!
    I think I need to move!

    p.s. I remember that shot with the car from another thread, I think it was during a challenge or something. Is that NYC in the background?

  25. #25
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    Astro is not the only reason...and the a6000 shoots ok astro just not great.

    I have a long way to go before I am ready to spend big money on astro

    If anyone is interested here is one of the best astro websites (i think) really informative and helpful and shoots with an Sony a7s

    http://www.lonelyspeck.com/
    Camera : Sony A6000
    Sony Lens : FE 90mm f/2.8 G OSS Macro , 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 OSS, 10-18mm f/4 OSS ultra wide,FE 16-35mm f/4 OSS ZA Lens
    Sigma Lens : 30mm f/2.8 DN

    500 px : https://500px.com/stevemeier

  26. #26
    I will check it out for sure Steve, and thanks for sharing! I have a lot to learn in this area, and thanks site looks like a great wealth of knowledge

    Jay
    Jay - Comments, Questions, and Critiques always welcomed and encouraged!

    Current Everyday Gear: Sony A7r, Sony Nex-6, sel1855, sel55210, sel16f28, Rainbow Imagining MC/MD Lens Adapter, Minolta MD 50mm f/1.4 PG Rokkor Lens
    Current Pro Gear: 2x Canon 5d Mark II, EF 17-40mm f/4 L lens, EF 24-105mm f/4 L Lens, EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS lens, EF 100-400mm L IS lens, EF 135mm f/2 L Lens, EF 15mm f/2.8 fish-eye lens, 2x 580 EX II Flash Units, 3x AlienBee B800 Studio Flash Units, Studio light stands, backdrops, fold-able softboxes, umbrellas, etc..

  27. #27
    I just checked out that site and Wow! I have a request from a patron supporter, to review the a7s II, and what better subject matter than Astro to push the camera Perhaps matched with the Zeiss Batis 18mm f/ 2.8 lens would be a good option for review? According to lonleyspeck.com, it's a really good set-up for Astro photography... I have so much gear I want to review......

    Jayj
    Jay - Comments, Questions, and Critiques always welcomed and encouraged!

    Current Everyday Gear: Sony A7r, Sony Nex-6, sel1855, sel55210, sel16f28, Rainbow Imagining MC/MD Lens Adapter, Minolta MD 50mm f/1.4 PG Rokkor Lens
    Current Pro Gear: 2x Canon 5d Mark II, EF 17-40mm f/4 L lens, EF 24-105mm f/4 L Lens, EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS lens, EF 100-400mm L IS lens, EF 135mm f/2 L Lens, EF 15mm f/2.8 fish-eye lens, 2x 580 EX II Flash Units, 3x AlienBee B800 Studio Flash Units, Studio light stands, backdrops, fold-able softboxes, umbrellas, etc..

  28. #28
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    The A7s seems to be a lot of astro guys goto camera....I really enjoy the lonely speck website great info in general.
    Camera : Sony A6000
    Sony Lens : FE 90mm f/2.8 G OSS Macro , 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 OSS, 10-18mm f/4 OSS ultra wide,FE 16-35mm f/4 OSS ZA Lens
    Sigma Lens : 30mm f/2.8 DN

    500 px : https://500px.com/stevemeier

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