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Thread: a6300 Video Spec

  1. #1

    a6300 Video Spec

    I'm not satisfied. Sony and Canon are holding back on video spec. Any thoughts?

  2. #2
    First off, welcome to the forums Photon and cool name

    Which specs are you talking about specifically? They both sell professional video cameras also, don't forget...

    Thanks,
    Jay
    Jay - Comments, Questions, and Critiques always welcomed and encouraged!

    Current Everyday Gear: Sony A7r, Sony A6400, Sony Nex-6, Sigma 56mm f/1.4 Lens, Sigma 30mm f/1.4 Lens, Sony E 18-55mm, Sony E 55-210mm OSS Lens, Sony E 16mm f/2.8 Pancake, Rainbow Imagining MC/MD Lens Adapter w/ Minolta MD 50mm f/1.4 PG Rokkor Lens

  3. #3
    Well the problem as I see it, is the bitrate, the chroma sub-sampling, and the recording bits < these three things are the primary driver behind the picture quality (apart from how the data is read off the sensor of course). It seems they deliberately lock-down/restrict the codec. This is not a cost issue, it's a marketing issue. 8bit - 4:2:0 - at 50mbps effectively makes it an amateur device, so I hope Canon and Sony aren't trying to pretend they're giving us serious kit. I had high hopes for the a6000 successor, been waiting patiently for years hoping Canon and Sony and Panasonic would stop colluding and just loose the codec. They actually go out of their way to lock the codec down on these cameras, as I said, it's nothing to do with cost or R&D, that's my issue. All they have to do is give 10bit - 4:2:2 internal, and at 100mbps in H.265/HEVC and we'd be laughing, our videos would be ready for the big-time. Having to buy an Atmos Ninja or Assassin adds $1000 to the cost, but if Sony was to be a bit more generous and stop playing games, they could save us having to spend that extra on the Atmos and just give us the 10bit - 4:2:2 internal.

    I just wish they would stop the nonsense and let us get on with it. And we know that Magic lantern has come to the rescue of the Canon cameras, proving that the codec is stymied by Canon in the first place. And why is it stymied? Because if they gave us 10bit - 4:2:2 at 100mbps in H.265/HEVC, then pros would realize that there's no need to spend $25,000 on the stuff further up the range, because essentially the most substantial thing separating the models is simply 8-10-12 bit, and 4:2:0-4:2:2-4:4:4 et-cetera.
    Last edited by Photon; Feb 17 2016 at 09:53 AM.

  4. #4
    Great points, but what you are asking for will never happen in the real world. If Sony or Canon did that, they would destroy their pro series market share overnight... It is coming, but another few years for that in these ultra compact cameras I think. I do believe Sony and canon know we are aware of this software lockdown, but it's just the way it is. magic lantern is awesome and I use it on my Canon 5d mark II occasionally and wish a version would come out for Sony cameras. I know a team decided to take the challenge a few years ago, but I have never heard anything since.

    I also think the manufactures realize that pro quality in these small units will cause "other" problems. Pros will then complain the camera does not have the key ingredients for hardware that they want and need. They will try and use these cameras and get frustrated that they are not built good enough, poor battery life and so fourth. It seams like Sony put this weak battery in the mirrorless e-mount series cameras for a very good reason in their mind. Keeping the Pros happy with their purchase, while keeping us wanting more of the pro features.

    In the end Sony is working towards this direction and the higher bit rates are coming, slowly but surely.. The other hardware limitations should still keep the pros in a separate market for the most part I think. This si the master plan and if they unleash the higher bit rates to soon, pro customers will get really upset with their purchases... It's a bit of a pickle for sure!

    Thanks for the further explanation and I totally hear ya, believe me!

    Jay
    Jay - Comments, Questions, and Critiques always welcomed and encouraged!

    Current Everyday Gear: Sony A7r, Sony A6400, Sony Nex-6, Sigma 56mm f/1.4 Lens, Sigma 30mm f/1.4 Lens, Sony E 18-55mm, Sony E 55-210mm OSS Lens, Sony E 16mm f/2.8 Pancake, Rainbow Imagining MC/MD Lens Adapter w/ Minolta MD 50mm f/1.4 PG Rokkor Lens

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
    Great points, but what you are asking for will never happen in the real world. If Sony or Canon did that, they would destroy their pro series market share overnight... It is coming, but another few years for that in these ultra compact cameras I think. I do believe Sony and canon know we are aware of this software lockdown, but it's just the way it is. magic lantern is awesome and I use it on my Canon 5d mark II occasionally and wish a version would come out for Sony cameras. I know a team decided to take the challenge a few years ago, but I have never heard anything since.

    I also think the manufactures realize that pro quality in these small units will cause "other" problems. Pros will then complain the camera does not have the key ingredients for hardware that they want and need. They will try and use these cameras and get frustrated that they are not built good enough, poor battery life and so fourth. It seams like Sony put this weak battery in the mirrorless e-mount series cameras for a very good reason in their mind. Keeping the Pros happy with their purchase, while keeping us wanting more of the pro features.

    In the end Sony is working towards this direction and the higher bit rates are coming, slowly but surely.. The other hardware limitations should still keep the pros in a separate market for the most part I think. This si the master plan and if they unleash the higher bit rates to soon, pro customers will get really upset with their purchases... It's a bit of a pickle for sure!

    Thanks for the further explanation and I totally hear ya, believe me!

    Jay
    Yeah, obviously we share the passion, and I suspect there's quite a few others out there who would love to see Sony/Canon/Panasonic up the ante for our movies. At the end of the day I still don't wear the argument from Sony/Canon/Panasonic protecting sales of their higher-tier models. Clearly they have colluded on this essential part of the spec, fair enough, they're looking-out for their own interests, but I wish I could have a chat to them and try convincing them that there's no need to be so restrictive or stingy on this issue.

    At the end of the day, if they just gave us 10bit - 4:2:2 the world of prosumers/enthusiasts would be a happier place and good vibes all-around in our footage. We could get-on with what we need to do, and pros I believe would still buy the higher-priced models further up the range anyway, even if 10bit - 4:2:2 were available at the $1000 price-point.

    Let me give my 3 cents, my reasoning on the matter, as to why Sony/Canon/Panasonic should lighten-up a bit...

    1: If they gave us 10bit - 4:2:2, that's still not quite up to true pro standard, so no real problem there. The pros are still gonna want the 12bit-16bit 4:4:4 for their master archive footage, and the full-range colour gamut too < this is indispensable for true Hollywood-grade stuff. The pros will still pay for the expensive cameras. OLED TVs and HDMI 2.0 and the new Ultra Blu-ray are ready for the higher bandwidth colour, and there's a marked difference between 12bit and 10bit on the final master, and especially because the new OLED TV's with HDMI 2.0 are ready to receive it. 12bit is needed to fill the new-age color spectrum on next-gen TVs (aka latest LG OLED/Sony Quantum Dot models which are set to become the norm); so, as far as pros would be concerned (in Hollywood) 10bit would not fulfill their own requirements for the new-gen color gamut.

    2: At the end of the day the hardware connections... inputs/outputs on pro cameras are necessary, and thus will continue to be a key differentiator ensuring the sales of the pro cameras further up the range.

    3: The Jello affect inherent in DSLR cameras ensures that Hollywood pros and movie-makers will never take the lower-range cameras seriously. Pros cannot risk such foibles in their handiwork, it's an unacceptable quirk. The top-tier expensive cameras have a global-shutter, and pros more than likely won't accept anything less. Yes one can work-around the Jello affect, but it's really an annoyance that ultimately interferes with full liberty of filming techniques.

    4: If 10bit - 4:2:2 were to be inside these enthusiast/prosumer cameras, more would sell, because Hollywood producers need smash-cams for their dynamic up-front in-your-face shots for the new age of hardcore action movies. Disposable cameras is what they would be for, the hardcore action-shots, which are very much integral to movies these days.

    5: No pro (not go pro LOL) would have any right to place demands on Sony/Canon/Panasonic to up the hardware spec of consumer cameras, because Sony would have every right to just say: "Hang on, excuse me, these cameras are mass consumer products, and we intend not to skew the lines between the pro and the prosumer/enthusiast market, and we at Sony insist that these prosumer/enthusiast cameras shall remain just that, so we shall not oblige."
    Last edited by Photon; Feb 17 2016 at 10:39 AM.

  6. #6
    More really great points Photon, and after you explain it in such great detail like that, it does sound totally reasonable to me. Why not loosen the rains a bit more when it comes to the bit rates? The Pro camera market will still have it's place and folks like us would be happier with our product. I still think "they all" want to trickle it out year by year though keeping us wanting more... The new color specs for near future TV's will force us all upgrade at some point if we want to produce for that and so on... It's a bit of a game in the end.

    I did not know the specifics in near as much detail as you explained, as it pertains to the compressions and bit rates that current pro cameras and hollywood use. The crash cameras and what not was also new info for me, but does make perfect sense! I did hear about the 5d mark II being used for movies a while back, and the A7s and A7s II's are being used by a photojournalists like Vice for example.

    I really appreciate you sharing all that knowledge, because I really learned a lot in your detailed reply. That is an area where my studies are very limited. I'm slowly learning video and all of it's nuances, but photography is where I came from...

    Jay
    Jay - Comments, Questions, and Critiques always welcomed and encouraged!

    Current Everyday Gear: Sony A7r, Sony A6400, Sony Nex-6, Sigma 56mm f/1.4 Lens, Sigma 30mm f/1.4 Lens, Sony E 18-55mm, Sony E 55-210mm OSS Lens, Sony E 16mm f/2.8 Pancake, Rainbow Imagining MC/MD Lens Adapter w/ Minolta MD 50mm f/1.4 PG Rokkor Lens

  7. #7
    Rest assured, i'm as much a photography freak/enthusiast as I am a video enthusiast, so i'm more than happy to discuss the aspects of photography too. I'm no pro, but really it all comes down to the passion inside one's self. I'm not a heavy-hitter with Adobe Photoshop and such, and never will be, I prefer simplicity. The "PhotoNinja" RAW editor is more to my liking, and "ACDSee Pro 9" fit's my style of working too, but i'm liking the fact that the new Sony cameras come with a free copy of "Capture One Pro", a really good bonus AFAIC.

    FYI I was a Pentax user for a long time, but this a6300 has got me thinking, and lucky for us, Sony has been releasing their latest new-gen sensors with much better signal-to-noise ratios etc and BSI tech, so i'm keeping a close eye on their more recent cameras, so the photography side of things from Sony's latest sensors is offering world-class results for us in photography, i'm just hoping Sony will go the next step for the video side of things and take it up a notch. The only thing i'm umming about is the Sony 5-Axis and IBIS... many reports state that the anti-shake performance on Sony's cameras cause a juttering and jarring affect, which makes Sony's stabilization quite inadequate, but i've noticed that the 5-Axis stabilization tech in the Olympus cameras is near flawless, with great results... watch the huge difference here... Youtube "5-axis stabilization compared: Olympus OM-D E-M1 vs Sony A7 mark II" < Sony's take on stabilization is quite shoddy, and that just may be a deal-breaker for me.

    Here's the thing, for video, stabilization is 'priceless' to me (and many others), absolutely indispensable, and can make the difference between usable footage and unusable footage, very crucial. But the thing is that it makes a difference for still photography too, so Sony need to address the faulty inadequate tech inside their 5-Axis quicksmart IMO.
    Last edited by Photon; Feb 21 2016 at 02:43 PM.

  8. #8
    I have never heard of the 5-axis stabilization being an issue before. I never had a problem with it personally and thought the OMD-EM-5 was very similar in this regard. Perhaps because the M43 sensor is so small compared to the full frame it has much more wiggle room and actual compensation. That is what it looks like in the video for sure.

    The OM-D IBIS is far superior than the A7r II based on this test:



    I really think it has to due with the size of the sensor. It just does not seam practical that the full frame will have the same performance as a sensor half the size. If the sensor moves to much, the optics will be degraded noticeable, so the threshold for movement must be less on the Sony camera. That video was pretty surprising to me I must say. I did not expect the difference to be as noticeable.

    Thanks again,
    Jay
    Jay - Comments, Questions, and Critiques always welcomed and encouraged!

    Current Everyday Gear: Sony A7r, Sony A6400, Sony Nex-6, Sigma 56mm f/1.4 Lens, Sigma 30mm f/1.4 Lens, Sony E 18-55mm, Sony E 55-210mm OSS Lens, Sony E 16mm f/2.8 Pancake, Rainbow Imagining MC/MD Lens Adapter w/ Minolta MD 50mm f/1.4 PG Rokkor Lens

  9. #9
    Well yeah, we see a clear difference in that Youtube vid. But what now? This becomes more apparent when we see that Sony hasn't given 5-Axis or even IBIS to the a6300; the a6300 has to rely on IS in the lens, so I just hope that Sony OSS (Optical Steady shot) in the lens is up to the task.

    My point is that the 5-Axis on the Olympus is so effective that it can save major hassle and cost with an important factor. Many pros use a Gimal stabilizer for video work. If you look at this link >http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/br...7/N/3717223530 < and click on the tab "Digital Cine cameras", you will see that a video Gimal costs a lot, and is very precious for the function it performs, and many pros spend big money to get a Gimbal, smooth run-&-gun video is not possible without effective stabilization.


    Here's a comparison at Youtube between Sony IBIS and the Olympus 5-Axis > "[Stabilization Test] Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark II vs SONY NEX-5"


    On another matter, the Sony cameras are known to overheat when recording 4K video, it's a big problem, even on the Sony smartphones. Any Google search will attest to the problem.
    Last edited by Photon; Feb 21 2016 at 04:48 PM.

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