Confused over NEX concept

[whiteheat]

Hi all

I need some explanation as to the NEX concept is about. What I 'get' or understand about the NEX system, is that it is great for getting DSLR/T image quality in a small, pocketable, take it anywhere package. This works when you have a small form factor like the NEX AND with a pancake lens (and a small one at that even by pancake standards.

Now, what I don't get is that the NEX is an Interchangeable Lens Camera (ILC) system, which means you can put any compatible lens on that you require a-la mode of using the right tool for the job, i.e. wide angle for architectural, telephoto for skittish wildlife, etc. As soon as you mount any lens bigger than a pancake lens, you loose the only advantage over a 'proper' DSLR/T camera. So, if you're going to use different lenses, then you might as well have a DSLR/T in the first place for all the benefit and advantages that a DSLR/T gives you over a NEX camera.

If you need pocketability over everything else, then why bother with a NEX when something like the Sony RX-100 will perform magnificently and be even easier to carry around than a NEX camera with a pancake lens attached, not to mention the RX-100 having a zoom lens whilst the NEX lens is likely to be a prime (if it's a pancake lens). In fact many Point and Shoot (P&S) cameras are far more pocketable and some of them can actually do a half decent job these days.

To sum up. The NEX is not as useful/versatile/capable as a DSLR/T with any lens attached, but is a bit smaller. However, it is only pocketable with a pancake lens attached (and a fairly generous pocket is required to boot!). As soon as you have to attach any lens other than a pancake - usually of fixed length, the pocketability feature goes right out the window. Similarly, the NEX is not as small/pocketable as the RX-100 or most P&S or advanced P&S cameras. Back to original statement, I don't get the concept behind the NEX system as it loses out to bigger/small camera types albeit for different reasons, so why have a NEX camera? What's reason? What does the NEX system give you that you don't get in the other traditional forms? Have I missed something? Opinions welcome.

[Jay]

Thanks for your sediments and thoughts on the topic whiteheat,

Interesting points you raise here, but how exactly is the Nex not as good as a DSLR for most photography?? It has the same size senor and an incredible short (18cm) sensor to lens distance which allows for the flexibility to use any lens with an adapter? This does not turn the camera into a dslr. It becomes and incredible light form factor camera with a the option to use regular lenses that are large. Big difference as far as overall weight etc..

The rx100 has a much smaller senor and does not produce the image quality of the Nex cameras, although it is excellent considering the sensor size and incredible mega-pixel count. You can't change the fact of the sensor size. Sensor size means a lot when it comes to actual real world image quality!!

Jay

[whiteheat]

Thanks for your sediments and thoughts on the topic whiteheat,

Interesting points you raise here, but how exactly is the Nex not as good as a DSLR for most photography?? It has the same size senor and an incredible short (18cm) sensor to lens distance which allows for the flexibility to use any lens with an adapter? This does not turn the camera into a dslr. It becomes and incredible light form factor camera with a the option to use regular lenses that are large. Big difference as far as overall weight etc..

The rx100 has a much smaller senor and does not produce the image quality of the Nex cameras, although it is excellent considering the sensor size and incredible mega-pixel count. You can't change the fact of the sensor size. Sensor size means a lot when it comes to actual real world image quality!!

Jay

Hi Jay

Yes, I agree with everything you say . Yes, the NEX can be as good as a DSLR for most photography and the RX-100 may not quite have the IQ of a NEX. However, all that wasn't the point of my post. What I was effectively getting at was, what was the point of the NEX as a camera system if it lost out in terms of features, functions and versatility of a DSLR and at the same time lost out to RX-100/P&S in terms of pocketability? What unique feature set/functionality/selling point does NEX give you as a system that is not available in or bettered by a DSLR system at the one end or a RX-100/P&S at the other end? I want to understand the ethos or raison detre of the NEX system.

[Jay]

Versatility I think is the biggest feature of the Nex system. You can "with a pancake lens" have a very light weight and small form factor high quality camera. It's also mirrorless which is the biggest physical difference, but allows the camera to be about 1/2 the size and weight. Having the ability to use adapters and any kind of lens for the most part is a huge selling point. With a DSLR you are pretty limited do to the sensor to flange distance. The nex being only 18mm allows for adapters to be made in a huge variety of sizes. You can even slap on the LA-EA2 adapter and effectively have a DSLR for shooting sports if you wanted to. So, flexibility, and versatility, light weight, much smaller form factor. If I were going traveling or hiking for example, I would much rather be carrying the Nex system than my Full Frame monstor of a camera and the huge heavy lenses it needs.

Does that makes sense?

Jay

[whiteheat]

Hi Jay

OK, now I sort of get it. I'll classify the NEX system as a kind of 'DSLR Lite' system, offering a basic, slim and portable combination at one end and a virtual DSLR well loaded with a serious lens at the other end. So yeah, I can see the versatility appeal of such a system although I'd worry that people's hands and wrists would develop serious problems in the long term if NEX was partnered with a serious zoom, i.e. any of the big Sigma zooms XXX-4/500mm or other weight equivalent lenses, especially considering the ergonomics of such a small form factor.

[Jay]

It is true it can be awkward with a large lens, no question. I kind of adapted to this by always having one hand on the lens to disperse the weight. I actual hold the camera by the lens primarily when using one of my huge Canon lenses. The larger nex lenses are not near as heavy, but I still use the had on the lens supporting method. The normal Nex lenses are very easy to hand hold though with just the camera. Especially with the awesome new Grip that Sony put on the newer models, similar to the Nex-7 Grip. I really don't think it's the norm to use huge lenses on the Nex, but it is an awesome option to have!!

Best,
Jay

[JoshSouza]

Not to mention, the NEX (well at least the 7) is pretty attractive, where as most DSLRs are butt ass ugly! I'll be honest, I got back into photography almost a year ago after not shooting for at least 10 years, I picked up a NEX-5 off of craigslist because of the price. I needed a viewfinder and some better controls, so when deciding to upgrade.. I was looking at the full spectrum of cameras available for the amount of money I had. I may or may not have made the right choice, I think I'd have the slight buyers remorse I have now no matter what I had purchased (mainly because I'm a gadget whore), but I will say that this camera has done most of what I've needed it to do.. low light kinda blows, after that I don't have many knocks on it... then again the last cameras I shot were 3.2 mp p&s canons and my old Nikkormat FT2.

[seanlancaster]

Hi all

I need some explanation as to the NEX concept is about. What I 'get' or understand about the NEX system, is that it is great for getting DSLR/T image quality in a small, pocketable, take it anywhere package. This works when you have a small form factor like the NEX AND with a pancake lens (and a small one at that even by pancake standards.

Now, what I don't get is that the NEX is an Interchangeable Lens Camera (ILC) system, which means you can put any compatible lens on that you require a-la mode of using the right tool for the job, i.e. wide angle for architectural, telephoto for skittish wildlife, etc. As soon as you mount any lens bigger than a pancake lens, you loose the only advantage over a 'proper' DSLR/T camera. So, if you're going to use different lenses, then you might as well have a DSLR/T in the first place for all the benefit and advantages that a DSLR/T gives you over a NEX camera.

This is really a faulty premise. I use many different lenses, but I really don't use any lens over 50mm (I do have a 55-210 and a big Canon FD 200/2.8, but I barely use them). The point that there is no benefit over a DSLR is just wrong because you're only thinking pocketability. I can mount my Zeiss 24 on my NEX-5N and use a tiny wrist strap to ensure it doesn't slip and walk around for hours with the camera in my hand. It never feels heavy and it's always ready for a shot. I used to have a Nikon D70 and the only way I could walk around for lengthy periods of street shooting were when I used a neck strap (sucked on hot days) or some other support system; it weighed too much with the big DSLR body and bigger lenses. Weight matters even if my camera is not pocketable. Sure, I can fit any of my regular lenses and camera into my jacket pocket, but I only do that to protect from rain if I am shooting with sprinkles. I see what lint and dust goes from my pocket to my Galaxy Nexus; I certainly don't want any nice camera in my pant pockets.

I think a person who is going to shoot with longer focal lengths would be silly to go NEX if that's all they're going to shoot, but if you're shooting landscapes or wildlife then you're better off, much of the time, on a tripod. If you're using a tripod then the size of the camera and lenses doesn't really matter. On the other hand, for someone who shoots in more of an urban settings and enjoys street photography walking around or shooting family and friends then the NEX system is pretty top notch. I have no desire to buy a pancake just to go smaller. I'd rather buy quality lenses and that's all I'll buy now. But I still have very little weight compared to a bigger DSLR and that's the bottom line for me.

[Jay]

Very good points you raise Sean Thanks for sharing and welcome to the New Sony Alpha Forum!

Jay

[whiteheat]

This is really a faulty premise. I use many different lenses, but I really don't use any lens over 50mm (I do have a 55-210 and a big Canon FD 200/2.8, but I barely use them). The point that there is no benefit over a DSLR is just wrong because you're only thinking pocketability. I can mount my Zeiss 24 on my NEX-5N and use a tiny wrist strap to ensure it doesn't slip and walk around for hours with the camera in my hand. It never feels heavy and it's always ready for a shot. I used to have a Nikon D70 and the only way I could walk around for lengthy periods of street shooting were when I used a neck strap (sucked on hot days) or some other support system; it weighed too much with the big DSLR body and bigger lenses. Weight matters even if my camera is not pocketable. Sure, I can fit any of my regular lenses and camera into my jacket pocket, but I only do that to protect from rain if I am shooting with sprinkles. I see what lint and dust goes from my pocket to my Galaxy Nexus; I certainly don't want any nice camera in my pant pockets.

I think a person who is going to shoot with longer focal lengths would be silly to go NEX if that's all they're going to shoot, but if you're shooting landscapes or wildlife then you're better off, much of the time, on a tripod. If you're using a tripod then the size of the camera and lenses doesn't really matter. On the other hand, for someone who shoots in more of an urban settings and enjoys street photography walking around or shooting family and friends then the NEX system is pretty top notch. I have no desire to buy a pancake just to go smaller. I'd rather buy quality lenses and that's all I'll buy now. But I still have very little weight compared to a bigger DSLR and that's the bottom line for me.

OK, I get what you're saying and sure, getting away with equipment lite is a benefit under any circumstances, as your example demonstrates. So, just to enlighten me, if you prefer toting round your NEX with 24mm Zeiss attached, what's the significant benefit(s) of that combo over a much lighter/more portable RX-100, which also has very good IQ? (I'm deliberately stressing the word significant). Many thanks and welcome to SonyAlphaLab.

[Jay]

OK, I get what you're saying and sure, getting away with equipment lite is a benefit under any circumstances, as your example demonstrates. So, just to enlighten me, if you prefer toting round your NEX with 24mm Zeiss attached, what's the significant benefit(s) of that combo over a much lighter/more portable RX-100, which also has very good IQ? (I'm deliberately stressing the word significant). Many thanks and welcome to SonyAlphaLab.

A minor price difference no?? Plus the RX1 is actually heavier. Mind you, I would gladly take the extra weight in a second for the full frame!! The RX1 is killer no question, but a limited fixed focal length camera.

Jay

Whoops, thought you said RX1, My bad Whiteheat

[seanlancaster]

OK, I get what you're saying and sure, getting away with equipment lite is a benefit under any circumstances, as your example demonstrates. So, just to enlighten me, if you prefer toting round your NEX with 24mm Zeiss attached, what's the significant benefit(s) of that combo over a much lighter/more portable RX-100, which also has very good IQ? (I'm deliberately stressing the word significant). Many thanks and welcome to SonyAlphaLab.

The RX100 uses a smaller sensor that is the same 1" sized sensor found in the little Nikon 1 camera. While this is significantly larger than regular point and shoot cameras, there is a big difference between the RX100 sensor and my APS-C sensor. For example, this figure has the RX100 in orange and the NEX sensor in green.


The RX100 has a focal length multiplier of 2.7x over full frame. In other words, if I am shooting on the RX100 at about 18mm then that would be similar to shooting at 33mm on my camera and 50mm on a full frame camera. But rather than go technical with my explanation, I'll instead provide the result of why this matters. My NEX-5N will provide significantly better low light performance (e.g., lower noise as ISO increases) and significantly better subject separation (e.g., bokeh) than the RX100. If I am shooting in perfect daylight conditions then the two cameras will likely produce similar results (assuming the dynamica range of the RX100 is up to snuff, and I suspect it is). But having subject separation and shooting in lower light conditions are important enough to me that I am considering the RX1, which has a full sized sensor and will surely have significant benefits over my current combo; though, I will wait to see a bunch more results with the final production firmware and camera.

[Jay]

Excellent info Sean, and I wish I read it correctly the first time You pretty much nailed it from the other sensor size direction!!

Jay

[whiteheat]

So in sum it's an IQ issue. OK, I get the NEX concept now. You get to do 80% to 90% of what a DSLR will do, achieve significantly better IQ over an advanced P&S, all in a package that is lighter and more compact than a DSLR and not much larger than a P&S (although conditional on lens choice). Thanks for explaining it all chaps, I feel as though I've learnt something. The NEX is a good compromise between a DSLR and an advanced P&S, using most of the best features from both worlds.

[seanlancaster]

To be fair, the NEX APC-S sensor is the same size as nearly every DSLR that is below $2000 (e.g., Canon EOS Rebel [edit: the Canon APC-S sensors are slightly smaller], Nikon D3200, Canon EOS 60D, Sony A77, Sony A55 and on and on). Most of the DSLRs have an advantage in a vast array of lenses to select from (particularly Nikon and Canon), but most of us shooting don't need 100+ lenses. Many DSLRs have a faster AF system than you will find on the NEX system and that would be the only reason I'd even consider an APC-S DSLR and that's not enough for me (e.g., you don't really use NEX cameras for sports photography even though a rare person here or there might be able to do it). I get too many other benefits by using the NEX that I gave up my Nikon DSLR to move the NEX-5N. I think the 5N has better noise handling than nearly every DSLR on the market that isn't full frame. You could almost say that most DSLR get 80-90% of my NEX than the other way around.

Lens selection has really been the big weakness of the NEX system. I don't care about slow lenses a bit, so I've avoided many of the lenses on the NEX system. I have some manual focus lenses that require an adapter. The nice thing about the NEX system is that the flange focal distance is so narrow from the lens to the sensor such that nearly every lens made can use an adapter to work on the NEX system. That doesn't mean the NEX will have autofocus (AF) or control the aperture (adapters are emerging for Canon lenses to control aperture and AF -- we'll see) because it won't, but many lenses have aperture control on the lens and work just swell using manual focus. For example, I have a Leica M mount lens that works just swell on my 5N -- the Voigtlander Nokton 35/1.4 Classic (MC). Many NEX users have a vast collection of Leica lenses. I prefer to the cheaper and still high quality old Canon FD lenses that work perfectly well on my NEX. I have the Sony Zeiss 24/1.8 and this is a very good AF lens (the best lens for the NEX system) and that is nearly all I need (and why I am considering the RX1). Sony is coming out with the 10-18 f/4 lens, which is supposed to be a landscape shooter's dream for the NEX. There is also a fast 35/1.8 lens emerging in the next month or so. We have a 50/1.8 as well. These last 3 lenses have OSS, which is image stabilization. I think the big lens missing is the 70-200/2.8 and we may not get it because people tend to want smaller on the NEX system and a 70-200/2.8 would be large. Plus, with an LA-EA2 adapter the NEX cameras can use the Sony Alpha lenses (e.g., a 70-200), but we lose image stabilization and a 1/2 stop of light to have faster AF with the adapter.

I am strange because I don't want to use a viewfinder or EVF; rather, I prefer the LCD panel. And my 5N has an articulating LCD screen that allows me to shoot from the hip or hold the camera above my head to shoot over a crowd and still compose my shot. I really prefer this mode of shooting and the upcoming A99 is the only full frame camera that can match or beat my NEX-5N LCD. I tried LiveView on the Nikon D600 and it felt generations behind my 5N and my 5N is a year old camera now. I would prefer more external controls on my camera and that is where the NEX 7 shines (as do many DSLRs). I am all over the place, but the point is that I think the 5N, in particular, is a pretty special little camera.

[whiteheat]

Haha! "most DSLR get 80-90% of my NEX than the other way around." Nice try. Did you forget that DSLRs are a much more mature form of the technology, with PDAF, more manual controls, better ergonomics and better handling and balance particularly with bigger lens options? No, of course you didn't - I was speaking rhetorically. Sure, I can now see how and where NEX has its place in a photographic repertoire for sure, but to my mind, the DSLR is still king of the hill as far as function and form go. Lenses are a fascinating subject by themselves. The advantage of NEX is the ability to use any lens from any manufacturer which is great. But also the NEX specific lenses are coming along nicely, being smaller and lighter than their Full Frame equivalents. That said, I've found that as a rule, the larger the glass, both in front element and aperture size, the better the optical quality, the better the final IQ. So from that perspective, if you need the best IQ you can afford to get, a DSLR with large fast glass is a tough combination for a NEX plus lens combo to beat. Yep, you're right, it appears Sony has the best implementation of Liveview on any DSLR system, although I hear that the Olympus OMd em5 is also extra-ordinarily good as well. Personally, I prefer having my eye pressed to an eye cup on the viewfinder to get the best view without an external light source interfering with my vision or view of the image.

[Alan]

This discussion is really coming along nicely and to a point I agree wholeheartedy with what whiteheat has been saying. I do believe the DSLR/SLT is going to remain King of the Hill for a long while yet. BUT (and it's a big but) modern photography is all about versatility. Everyone from beginners through advanced to professionals want to take all sorts of photos in all sorts of genres. Where once a 35mm manual-wind viewfinder with a fixed 45/2.4 lens was the family's main record keeper and Dad's companion at the sports carnivals, those days are gone. Now it's Dad's creative outlet, the kid's party snapper, Mum's eBay documenter, etcetera. Versatility! That's why I have just arrived (sadly) at the conclusion I'm not going to be able to justify buying the RX1 - it's just not versatile enough for me and I really can't afford a one-act circus. I'm also just starting out in the photography business and versatile is what its all about (thanks for summing that up so succinctly for me earlier, Jay).

And versatility is what the NEX system is all about. I don't particularly like the NEX cameras and I don't aspire to own one (except for the NEX7 maybe) but they are definitely versatile. My shooting buddy has the NEX5n and I've seen him do things with that camera and his exotic collection of old- and new-world lenses that I'd have to work hard to emulate.Mick doesn't just shoot portraits or live performances or lightpainting or urbex or happy snaps -- he shoots all of those and more. We all want a perfect photo from the top of Everest, but not many of us are willing to carry a DSLR/SLT kit on our back to do it. In the hands of a skilled practitioner, that camera is a hardcore weapon in a pocketable format.

The native lens selection annoys me most, though. They've got 1 freakin pancake lens and that's 16mm! Useless focal length for street, not quality enough for landscapes. The new and upcoming 16-50mm pancake is the goods though, and that's certainly something to consider for walkabout lenses. Sigma provide 2 good primes for the NEX and the longer one is great for streety/journey stuff where the compactness is a viable trade-off and budget a concern. If I were to buy into the NEX range and then fit it with something like $3000 Leica glass, I'd may as well just go buy the Leica body to go with the glass.

BTW those old Canon FD lenses are magic - I've just been looking at the legendary 50mm f/0.95 on eBay.

[Jay]

They've got 1 freakin pancake lens and that's 16mm! Useless focal length for street, not quality enough for landscapes

Not good enough for landscapes? I totally dis agree with that bud It's a very sharp lens at f/8 and the slight distortion is easily correctable. Plus it's a Pancake and cheap!! Sony 16mm Review and Pancake Sample Pics >>

Jay

[seanlancaster]

I think there was quite a bit of quality variability in the Sony 16 when it came out. Some people swear it's a good lens and others wrote the lens off rather quickly. I owned the lens for a few months and my copy was very sharp when stopped down and when you're shooting landscapes, stopping down is often essential. I just don't really shoot landscapes and rarely used it. I had bought the lens used and when it was hard to find I sold it for nearly a $100 profit.

Hopefully the upcoming 10-18 produces sharp images for folks who need wide angle. There are a lot of people really looking forward to that new lens.

[Jay]

I think there was quite a bit of quality variability in the Sony 16 when it came out. Some people swear it's a good lens and others wrote the lens off rather quickly. I owned the lens for a few months and my copy was very sharp when stopped down and when you're shooting landscapes, stopping down is often essential. I just don't really shoot landscapes and rarely used it. I had bought the lens used and when it was hard to find I sold it for nearly a $100 profit.

Hopefully the upcoming 10-18 produces sharp images for folks who need wide angle. There are a lot of people really looking forward to that new lens.

I'm one of those people dieing for that lens!!

Jay